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	<title>Comments on: The Limitations of Server Log Files for Usability Analysis</title>
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	<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/</link>
	<description>Boxes and Arrows is devoted to the practice, innovation, and discussion of design; including graphic design, interaction design, information architecture and the design of business.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 13:09:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: stevefleck</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7128</link>
		<dc:creator>stevefleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7128</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The title of this article should be &quot;Log files: 99% Bad&quot; because, like Nielsen&#039;s article of similar name this one seems to have been written in 2000.  While you focus on log files -- which I agree have a lot of limitations-- your article completely ignores client side analytics tagging (which addresses many caching issues and which is used by thousands of sites).  And while I agree that it is difficult to measure online success via analytics (but that too is possible to some degree with advanced features of some web analytics tools that can track a purchase funnel) I can still get a lot of great info out of web analytics tools that help me improve the site for users.  A more balanced view would have been helpful-- &quot;log files aren&#039;t all that helpful but client side tagging is a viable workaround.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The title of this article should be &#8220;Log files: 99% Bad&#8221; because, like Nielsen&#8217;s article of similar name this one seems to have been written in 2000.  While you focus on log files &#8212; which I agree have a lot of limitations&#8211; your article completely ignores client side analytics tagging (which addresses many caching issues and which is used by thousands of sites).  And while I agree that it is difficult to measure online success via analytics (but that too is possible to some degree with advanced features of some web analytics tools that can track a purchase funnel) I can still get a lot of great info out of web analytics tools that help me improve the site for users.  A more balanced view would have been helpful&#8211; &#8220;log files aren&#8217;t all that helpful but client side tagging is a viable workaround.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: karlcore</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7129</link>
		<dc:creator>karlcore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I say at the top of the article: &quot;I realize that some analytics software gather data by other means than parsing log files and may in fact contain some features meant to overcome one or more of the criticisms I outline throughout this article. I do not discuss such programs, primarily because there is little consistency between them and ultimately they are just as poor at gathering real usability data as analytic tools which parse log files.&quot;

Regardless of how the data is captured, it is unrealistic to expect to glean usability data from analytics.  Without knowing what task a specific user is attempting to do, there&#039;s no way of judging whether they&#039;ve actually done it.  Analytics tools only record requests.  They can&#039;t record whether that request did or did not satisfy a user&#039;s need - only the user themselves can tell you that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I say at the top of the article: &#8220;I realize that some analytics software gather data by other means than parsing log files and may in fact contain some features meant to overcome one or more of the criticisms I outline throughout this article. I do not discuss such programs, primarily because there is little consistency between them and ultimately they are just as poor at gathering real usability data as analytic tools which parse log files.&#8221;</p>
<p>Regardless of how the data is captured, it is unrealistic to expect to glean usability data from analytics.  Without knowing what task a specific user is attempting to do, there&#8217;s no way of judging whether they&#8217;ve actually done it.  Analytics tools only record requests.  They can&#8217;t record whether that request did or did not satisfy a user&#8217;s need &#8211; only the user themselves can tell you that.</p>
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		<title>By: henrikpp</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7130</link>
		<dc:creator>henrikpp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7130</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The article makes a great point and backs it up very well.  I was hoping for a possible solution or alternative though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article makes a great point and backs it up very well.  I was hoping for a possible solution or alternative though.</p>
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		<title>By: stevefleck</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7131</link>
		<dc:creator>stevefleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s an example.  I discover from analytics (regardless of method) that a certain detailed content page buried in my site is requested many thousands of times. I&#039;m using the word &quot;request&quot; specifically here to indicate my agreement about the inherent limitation of analytics.  I also know that a link to this page does not appear anywhere in the top 3 levels of the site.   Even without user testing (which is important, I&#039;m not trying to debate that) would it be reasonable to draw the conclusion that users would be better served if I surfaced this content to a higher level?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s an example.  I discover from analytics (regardless of method) that a certain detailed content page buried in my site is requested many thousands of times. I&#8217;m using the word &#8220;request&#8221; specifically here to indicate my agreement about the inherent limitation of analytics.  I also know that a link to this page does not appear anywhere in the top 3 levels of the site.   Even without user testing (which is important, I&#8217;m not trying to debate that) would it be reasonable to draw the conclusion that users would be better served if I surfaced this content to a higher level?</p>
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		<title>By: karlcore</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7132</link>
		<dc:creator>karlcore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7132</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, it would not be reasonable to do so. First, how do you know those requests are being performed by actual people and not bots?  If you attempt to say that you filter out bots, I will show you one I&#039;ve written which identifies itself successfully as IE.  Second, you say this content page is being requested many thousands of times. To most proponents of analytics, this would seem to indicate success, would it not? After all, analytics tools only report on successful requests, right? So if it is successfully being requested, why move it?  Last, and always, without knowing why the user is doing something, there&#039;s no way to determine whether the request was successful or not successful.  Exactly what brand of analytics tool, through client-side means or server-side, does it tell you the user traveled to that page and then realized it was or was not what they were looking for?  Without that information, any decision to modify the site due to analytics is purely driven by conjecture.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, it would not be reasonable to do so. First, how do you know those requests are being performed by actual people and not bots?  If you attempt to say that you filter out bots, I will show you one I&#8217;ve written which identifies itself successfully as IE.  Second, you say this content page is being requested many thousands of times. To most proponents of analytics, this would seem to indicate success, would it not? After all, analytics tools only report on successful requests, right? So if it is successfully being requested, why move it?  Last, and always, without knowing why the user is doing something, there&#8217;s no way to determine whether the request was successful or not successful.  Exactly what brand of analytics tool, through client-side means or server-side, does it tell you the user traveled to that page and then realized it was or was not what they were looking for?  Without that information, any decision to modify the site due to analytics is purely driven by conjecture.</p>
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		<title>By: cennydd</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7133</link>
		<dc:creator>cennydd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7133</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with a lot of what you say but, to me, this article reads a little bit like one of those &quot;BREAKING NEWS: Wikipedia may not be entirely accurate&quot; stories. If you write a Masters&#039; dissertation based on a Wikipedia article you&#039;re a fool. If you base any kind of big design decisions solely off log files you&#039;re a fool. But both *can* be a useful guide, a starting off point for future investigation. IAs are pretty adept at gathering data from numerous sources and appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of each observation. I&#039;d content that analytics can contribute to this. To write it off completely, as this article does, seems a little over-zealous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with a lot of what you say but, to me, this article reads a little bit like one of those &#8220;BREAKING NEWS: Wikipedia may not be entirely accurate&#8221; stories. If you write a Masters&#8217; dissertation based on a Wikipedia article you&#8217;re a fool. If you base any kind of big design decisions solely off log files you&#8217;re a fool. But both *can* be a useful guide, a starting off point for future investigation. IAs are pretty adept at gathering data from numerous sources and appreciating the strengths and weaknesses of each observation. I&#8217;d content that analytics can contribute to this. To write it off completely, as this article does, seems a little over-zealous.</p>
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		<title>By: stevefleck</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7134</link>
		<dc:creator>stevefleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7134</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cennydd, well stated.  Karl, thanks for the response to my earlier comment.   I agree with your last statement-- we shouldn&#039;t make changes based solely on analytics.  I like Cennydd&#039;s statement that analytics provide a good starting off point for future investigation (especially if combined with search log analysis and other information).    Bots, caching, etc. all complicate things but again that doesn&#039;t mean I should ignore web analytics completely.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cennydd, well stated.  Karl, thanks for the response to my earlier comment.   I agree with your last statement&#8211; we shouldn&#8217;t make changes based solely on analytics.  I like Cennydd&#8217;s statement that analytics provide a good starting off point for future investigation (especially if combined with search log analysis and other information).    Bots, caching, etc. all complicate things but again that doesn&#8217;t mean I should ignore web analytics completely.</p>
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		<title>By: stevefleck</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7135</link>
		<dc:creator>stevefleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[P.S.  And Karl, my apologies for the inflammatory opening line to the first comment-- it deserved the negative rating it received.  There&#039;s lots of good analysis in the article and it was irresponsible of me to toss the baby out with the bathwater, which I... er... think I accused you of doing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S.  And Karl, my apologies for the inflammatory opening line to the first comment&#8211; it deserved the negative rating it received.  There&#8217;s lots of good analysis in the article and it was irresponsible of me to toss the baby out with the bathwater, which I&#8230; er&#8230; think I accused you of doing.</p>
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		<title>By: nickbesseling</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7136</link>
		<dc:creator>nickbesseling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7136</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Karl/
I tend agree with Cennydd and Steve.

While your in-depth analysis does really well to point out the limitations of analytics I think the idea that one would replace analytics with a usability expert or vice-vera is a wrong. They both serve different purposes and both have their faults and I really can&#039;t see how they are directly interchangeable.

I also think a lot of the analyitcs software around these days adds a lot more value and are &#039;smarter&#039; than what it used to be.

I see analytics as another tool that adds weight to certain directions and provides valuable trend and user system data.  

In the IA/Usability field I tend to feel there is far too many idelogical skews for and against certain approaches (I have been/am guilty of it myself) and feel that collecting all the information (both qualatative and quantative) possible that time/cost allows will be far more helpful in coming up with a suitable direction and solution. 

Striking out the only available source of full scale system/user qualatative data (despite the limitations) seems a little strong.

Flexibility and a broad perspective is always the best approach and that nothing should be ruled out (unless it really is stretching the boundries of usefulness).

But depsite these points the article is a useful one as it does point out a log of specific analytic limitations I wasn&#039;t fully aware of.

Cheers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Karl/<br />
I tend agree with Cennydd and Steve.</p>
<p>While your in-depth analysis does really well to point out the limitations of analytics I think the idea that one would replace analytics with a usability expert or vice-vera is a wrong. They both serve different purposes and both have their faults and I really can&#8217;t see how they are directly interchangeable.</p>
<p>I also think a lot of the analyitcs software around these days adds a lot more value and are &#8216;smarter&#8217; than what it used to be.</p>
<p>I see analytics as another tool that adds weight to certain directions and provides valuable trend and user system data.  </p>
<p>In the IA/Usability field I tend to feel there is far too many idelogical skews for and against certain approaches (I have been/am guilty of it myself) and feel that collecting all the information (both qualatative and quantative) possible that time/cost allows will be far more helpful in coming up with a suitable direction and solution. </p>
<p>Striking out the only available source of full scale system/user qualatative data (despite the limitations) seems a little strong.</p>
<p>Flexibility and a broad perspective is always the best approach and that nothing should be ruled out (unless it really is stretching the boundries of usefulness).</p>
<p>But depsite these points the article is a useful one as it does point out a log of specific analytic limitations I wasn&#8217;t fully aware of.</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: drpete</title>
		<link>http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7137</link>
		<dc:creator>drpete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://boxesandarrows.com/the-limitations-of-server-log-files-for-usability-analysis/#comment-7137</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You certainly make some valid points about the limitations of web logs, but I really think you&#039;re throwing out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to analytics. Yes, analytics aren&#039;t very useful for getting a window on any individual user, but they are useful as one more tool for understanding people in the aggregate. A lot of the caching issues do work themselves out in the wash, just as noise does in any system where you&#039;re collecting large amounts of data. Personally, I have gleaned valuable usability insights by tracking long-term trends in exit pages, bounce rates, jumps in error-page activitiy, etc. In some of these cases, analytics helped me pinpoint a problem that I didn&#039;t know was there, and that problem was completely verifiable (in other words, it wasn&#039;t an illusion of bad data).

Look at the flip-side as well. Is testing a single user (or a couple of users) in a traditional usability test perfect, statistically speaking? Not remotely. Using a couple of users to generalize to thousands or tens of thousands is wildly unreliable, especially since those users may not even be representative. Does that mean the technique is useless? Of course not. In fact, using these techniques in tandem helps reduce noise even further: if you take the hypotheses from testing users individually and reference them against the clues you get from aggregate data, you&#039;ll end up with information that is all the richer and more valuable.

My grad advisor used to say that there were three levels of understanding statistics: (1) knowing just enough to be dangerous, (2) knowing enough to play by the rules, and (3) and knowing when the rules don&#039;t matter. I&#039;ve met statisticians who can tear apart absolutely any real-world analysis someone could ever run, and they&#039;re all level 2 people. The problem is, if you carry that too far, you can&#039;t get anything done. I think it&#039;s important to look at any tool objectively, know its faults, but then move forward and try to extract the best value you can. Web analytics aren&#039;t a new, unproven tool, and while many people misuse them, I also know some flat-out brilliant people deriving real value from them for both clients and end-users.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You certainly make some valid points about the limitations of web logs, but I really think you&#8217;re throwing out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to analytics. Yes, analytics aren&#8217;t very useful for getting a window on any individual user, but they are useful as one more tool for understanding people in the aggregate. A lot of the caching issues do work themselves out in the wash, just as noise does in any system where you&#8217;re collecting large amounts of data. Personally, I have gleaned valuable usability insights by tracking long-term trends in exit pages, bounce rates, jumps in error-page activitiy, etc. In some of these cases, analytics helped me pinpoint a problem that I didn&#8217;t know was there, and that problem was completely verifiable (in other words, it wasn&#8217;t an illusion of bad data).</p>
<p>Look at the flip-side as well. Is testing a single user (or a couple of users) in a traditional usability test perfect, statistically speaking? Not remotely. Using a couple of users to generalize to thousands or tens of thousands is wildly unreliable, especially since those users may not even be representative. Does that mean the technique is useless? Of course not. In fact, using these techniques in tandem helps reduce noise even further: if you take the hypotheses from testing users individually and reference them against the clues you get from aggregate data, you&#8217;ll end up with information that is all the richer and more valuable.</p>
<p>My grad advisor used to say that there were three levels of understanding statistics: (1) knowing just enough to be dangerous, (2) knowing enough to play by the rules, and (3) and knowing when the rules don&#8217;t matter. I&#8217;ve met statisticians who can tear apart absolutely any real-world analysis someone could ever run, and they&#8217;re all level 2 people. The problem is, if you carry that too far, you can&#8217;t get anything done. I think it&#8217;s important to look at any tool objectively, know its faults, but then move forward and try to extract the best value you can. Web analytics aren&#8217;t a new, unproven tool, and while many people misuse them, I also know some flat-out brilliant people deriving real value from them for both clients and end-users.</p>
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